|Reader Feedback on OS X 10.5.8 Update
Reports last Updated: 8/11/2009 (11:45PM)
This page has reader feedback (pros/cons, notes, etc.) on OS X 10.5.8 update.
(See August 5th, 2009 news page for links to download pages (delta, combo and server), apple docs on changes/security fixes, etc.)
Reader Feeedback on 10.5.8: (later reports first)
If you update to 10.5.8 and see any major pros or cons (including any 3rd party device/driver/app issues), let me know the details. Thanks.
Please note your Mac model, any addons and if you used SU or a download (delta or combo) updater. Especially for problem reports include info on addons (hardware/software/driver/startup items, etc.)
FYI - if using the 10.5.8 COMBO updater and you see empty permissions errors (should be "?---------"), some suggest reapplying the Combo updater again. However remember there's also a LONG list of common (many CodeResources - symbolic links IMHO) permissions differences you can ignore and that will not really be repaired (as I mentioned before and this is not new to 10.5.8). Personally I am not RP fanatic and generally only do so if there's a related problem.
And even when using download updaters I like to reboot clean before applying an update. (And verify the boot disk before updating.)
AirPort Client Update for MacBook and MacBook Pro released late Aug. 11th (ref: earlier post below on this problem.)
About AirPort Client Update for MacBook and MacBook Pro
This update is recommended for some Intel-based Macintosh computers running Mac OS X v10.5.8 and addresses an issue with AirPort performance while running on battery power. It may only be installed on:
MacBook (13-inch, Late 2007)
MacBook (13-inch, Early 2008)
MacBook (13-inch, Late 2008)
MacBook Pro (15-inch, Early 2008)
MacBook Pro (17-inch, Early 2008)
MacBook Pro (17-inch, Late 2008)
Tip for anyone with Airport (wireless) problems w/10.5.8 [See later update above for apple fix]
Personally I've not seen any 10.5.8/Airport problems with desktops here (5GHz and 2.4GHz networks used here) - but no Laptops/battery powered Macs here currently. And all the N macs I have are Broadcom card based. Some Mac notebooks have used atheros N cards.
(from Aug 9th email)
"Subject: wifi issues with 10.5.8
I reported earlier of a wifi issue where the computer was having trouble connecting to the 5GHz band.
Looking through the discussions at Apple, the wifi is majorly screwed up on many MacBooks and MacBook Pros depending on the revision of Airport card they have. Some people get no Airport installed, some get really slow downloads and ping times even locally when on Battery but fine on AC power, some get the problem I was having, some get no reconnect after sleep or dropping after 1 hour.
According to some, Apple is working on a fix and it will be in Software Update shortly. In the meantime, anyone having an issue can revert to the previous version of the Airport driver, if they are using Time Machine.
As recommended by an Apple tech, navigate to System/Library/Extensions and then open Time Machine. Travel back in time to before the 10.5.8 update and retrieve IO80211Family.kext and bring it forward.
It'll ask for your password. Then, reboot. You'll get a warning that the kext cache needs to updated, and then after reboot, all should be restored to 10.5.7 wifi glory (which wasn't so great, but better than 10.5.8 for some people). For me, it's now immediately finding the 5GHz network when I wake from sleep, rather than taking too much time and reverting to 2.4GHz or no network at all.
No idea if the update that Apple is due to release will not work after this, so use at your own risk, of course.
PS - here is the discussion thread from Apple Forums - titled
Temporary fix as per Apple Product specialist OSX 10.5.8 WIFI fix"
"Mike, I updated both my 10.5.7 systems to 10.5.8. I always repair permissions and use the combo update. One Mac is a dual G5 PowerMac; the other is last year's MacBook Pro. No new problems introduced.
On a positive note:
On the G5, since I cleaned out a bunch of caches a while ago (cannot remember which tool I used), I've been getting a strange message (whenever I run a MS Office program or any other program that needs font) that the program wants permission to use AppleGothic and Courier fonts from a backup drive. I tried a lot of things to fix this; all unsuccessful. Lo and behold, after the 10.5.8 update, it was fixed...
[however the next day he wrote]
That font problem re-appeared from Office.
FYI on the issue of the "missing" fonts, it turns out that this is a bug in Leopard's auto-font activation. I think Apple added auto-activation in 10.5. It appears that the user has no real control over this feature. In third party font managers (e.g., Suitcase) you have various levels of activating fonts and groups of fonts, for example by application. In my case the requested fonts are installed...but for some reason various programs are looking for the font to be on a drive other than the boot drive.
One successful solution is to open the Apple Font Book app, and in preferences, turn off (uncheck) font auto-activation. That's my solution.
Best regards, Don K."
I don't have MS office installed on any of my Macs.
For the last 2 updates (on known totally reliable OS X installs) I've used the D/L Delta update. (But using a Combo update if problems are seen with SU/Delta is a old/common tip - although it won't fix all problems.) And speaking of Permissions, running Verify Permissions on both 10.5.8 (d/l delta updated) HD's here still shows a long string of permissions differences (seen for a long time) - 10.5.5 or .6 was almost clean on this for me, but later App updates, QT, etc. (and OS X updates) still show many "CodeResources" differences - typically "should be -rw-r--r-- , they are lrwxr-xr-x". (I think these may be regarding symbolic links IIRC, but I could be mistaken.) You can "repair" them but a later check shows the same thing. (I stopped bothering with that until I see something not working.) FYI: I noticed on Aug. 10th that Apple's revised their previous doc on Disk Utility Repair Disk Permissions messages that you can safely ignore - it now lists some CodeResources examples (as well as others).
"Updated Mac Pro Quad 2.66 with boot HD on internal SATA bus and FirmTek SATA card and port multiplier drives attached and FW800 drives attached to 10.5.8 no hitches or problems. Have not run all programs yet, but have run Safari, Mail, Retrospect, FileMaker Pro, Parallels (4.0.3844 & XP), FireFox 3.5.2 and Excel (2004) no problems. Updated with Delta updater.
Just wanted to pass on since only problems seem to get reported. (True in general for most anything unfortunately - you're far less likely to hear from the majority that have no problems. Although some here have noted either no problems or some previous issues fixed/improvements. But many (w/o) problems may not really notice any changes (as many of the fixes are for specific services/apps) and some are security related.-Mike) Will be updating balance of machines next week - 20+ and will report if experience any problem - we have a good cross section of iMacs & MacBooks & G5 Server. As an aside I have updated hundreds if not thousands of times and have only had any problem a couple of times.
Since the first OS X releases I've rarely had any real problems (and not once had one of the horror stories where the system wouldn't boot after the update) - but I did see the keychain issue in a very early 10.5 version but other than the v.92 connect issue I mentioned (first seen with 10.5.7 but only affects the local #) I've had very good luck with upgrades. (But I've also avoided using some of the system hacks that in the past have been broken by OS X updates.)
"I put 10.5.8 on a dual G4 1.42GHz G4 MDD and a PowerBook G4 1.67GHz as well as Server 10.5.8 on a dual 1.33 G4 Xserve and a dual 500 MHz Sawtooth G4. I put security update 2009-003 on a 450 MHz Cube as well. I can't tell that anything has broken, or that anything has been fixed either. Reading the About pages makes this update makes it seem mostly security related. (That's one part of it, but there are also over a dozen other (non-security related) items listed on the About 10.5.8 update doc. (Some fixes are related to specific configurations/hardware or services, although as usual, I wish there were more specifics on the fixes/improvements listed - especially for example on the "improved compatibility with some external USB hard drives" - i.e. example models/bridge boards affected.)
- Improves the accuracy of full history search in Safari 4.
- Resolves an issue in which certain resolutions might not appear in the Display pane in System Preferences.
- Dragging an Aperture image into Automator now invokes an Aperture action instead of incorrectly invoking an iPhoto action.
- Resolves an issue that could prevent importing of large photo and movie files from digital cameras.
- Improves overall Bluetooth reliability with external devices, USB webcams and printers.
- Addresses an issue that could cause extended startup times.
- Improves iCal reliability with MobileMe Sync and CalDav.
- Addresses data reliability issues with iDisk and MobileMe.
- Improves overall reliability with AFP.
- Improves overall reliability with Managed Client.
- Improves compatibility and reliability for joining AirPort networks.
- Improves Sync Service reliability.
- Includes additional RAW image support for several third-party cameras.
- Improves compatibility with some external USB hard drives.
And one 'fix' not listed is the ATI driver issue with VM Fusion. And sometimes an update (driver, etc.) may fix one known issue but have a bug in the new version that causes problems for some other specific configuration.-Mike)
I suspect the time has come that software updates won't be doing much for such geriatric boxes anyway. (This may be the last OS X 10.5 dot update, other than perhaps some security updates, since 10.6 (Intel-cpu macs only) is to be released in a couple months.) I really need to replace these relics someday, but Apple will force my hand soon enough.
I used the delta updates through Software Update, but I also downloaded the combo installers. That's like 979 MB for Server. I have those for each version that has come out.
"Hi Mike. I updated a 2.33GHz iMac from 10.5.7 to 10.5.8 using the Combo Updater. No problems. Prior to the update I repaired permissions and, of course, did a full clone backup. Following the update I again repaired permissions and ran Disk Warrior.
I had been having some latency problems with the web prior to the update, but they seem to have disappeared. I'm not sure that I can attribute that to the update however, since there could have been a problem that was fixed either by the update replacing a particular file or the running of Disk Warrior.
(reports from August 6th follow)
Here's a report from a reader that (like me) had problems w/v.92 connects (chronic/repeated) with his USB Apple modem immediately after the 10.5.7 update:
"Hi Mike, OS X 10.5.8 seems to have fixed my problem with the USB Modem and v.92 connects; which have returned as reliable.... and the connection holds (for hours at the moment).
Apple USB Modem used on early 2007 'maxed out' 17" macbook pro.
I wondered if 10.5.8 would fix that for those of us that saw a problem after updating to 10.5.7. Tonight I updated the (2007) iMac that uses an Apple USB modem (occasionally) and still has that problem (since 10.5.7). I tried v.92 again (after 10.5.8 update) with the local access number that had the problem immediately after the 10.5.7 update - 5 tries, all failed. Switching back to v.34 again (after also trying v.90 - no joy). Most 10.5.7 users didn't see this problem but some of us did - I had 4 replies to my original post on this back in the May 13th news page from readers that saw the same problem after 10.5.7 update. (Most said the v.34 tip helped - although of course lower connect rates.) For me it was only a problem with the local modem bank - the next nearest access # was fine - but although only 13 miles away (and same area code), it was 'long distance' (per billing - and I had my $20/mo unlimited LD plan cancelled for using the "LD" number a few times over several months - no LD "data" use allowed).
I'd had failures to connect (v.92) at times in the past but usually a 2nd try worked. Not after 10.5.7 - I tried dozens of times w/o success (well over 50 attempts in the following days - all failed to connect.) My workaround was using the v.34 script option for the Apple USB modem. Slower but beats wasting time failing to connect over and over and over at v.92. No noise on the line. My first thought was it may have been some change at the local access point (maybe their modems failed and they found a great deal on some v.34 modems at goodwill) but the chronic problem w/v.92 connects to that number started immediately after the 10.5.7 update.
Just letting you know that I installed 10.5.8 Combo Update (not delta) on a MacPro 3.2GHz, iMac 2.8GHz (summer 07) a Macbook Pro 2.4GHz (unibody) and an old iBook G4 1.25GHz, all using the same combo update file on a thumb drive with no issues.
(That's another reason I always use the download updaters (for apps also, not just OS). Saving a copy to a an external drive (usually portable FW drive, although I picked up a 16GB USB thumbdrive last month for $29.xx on sale). Not only saves time updating other machines but also in case I ever have to do a clean install from the original discs w/older versions.-Mike)
Very long pause on all machines when it got to about 96% complete, (2 min remaining roughly). The different machines took different amounts of time at this point. MacPro was about 5 actual minutes from this point, the iBook more like 20. Double reboot on all (which is normal actually).
And all 4 machines running smooth after.
I just updated the 2.4GHz C2D iMac (2007) to 10.5.8 tonight (after updating the 10.5.7 clone on the Ministack). This time I watched the full install progress - at appx 85% full progress bar it did stop for awhile, but not more than about a minute. (I watched the clock.) And it then literally jumped from that point to fully complete. I didn't watch the updater progress beyond appx 50% on the MP upgrade last night. (After D/L'ing the updater I rebooted and ran it, but didn't watch the full duration of the update - I went back to working on other things on the iMac while it finished.)
"First Gen Mac Pro 2.0 dual, 9GB ram. This is probably subjective, but the Finder is much snappier and my upload speed has almost doubled from 604k to 1.0M/b. Have no major probs, AppleJack still works, everything is fine so far, Woo Hoo!!!
(I was curious about his network setup/hardware)
Network consists of (1) Dlink (DI-604) as a switch for three computers, into another Dlink (DI-615) as a router/wireless port for an HP printer, a MacBook aluminum and a Mac mini, which goes into another Dlink VOIP (DVG1120M) modem for long distance, which goes into a Thomson Cable Modem, into the Internet. Wheeew!
Regards, Robert B."
"For me, installing the 10.5.8 combo update over 10.5.7 on a MacBook Pro back-rev'd Perl File::Temp (which, for me, caused apache to fail). While it only required "install File::Temp" via CPAN, the proper update strategy would be for the installer to take into account _all_ Perl modules currently installed, not just the one's Apple supplies. It's
increasingly common that OS X updates back-rev installed Perl modules in this way.
I also experienced a hang starting up the Dashboard clients I have installed -- but, frankly, 10.5 has had more crashes in less than a year on _every_ system I regularly use than I had in total on _all_ such systems running 10.2.x thru 10.4.x, so this kind of thing has come to be expected. I'm hoping 10.6 will be more reliable since 10.5 has serious reliability issues compared to 10.2 thru 10.4 (for me on 5+ systems).
(I saw some of the early 10.5 issues (keychain, etc.) but especially since 10.5.5 or so, Leopard has been very solid for me. (Not that I had KPs or other major issues before though.) Primary work machine is a C2D 24in iMac refurb bought in nov 2007 and no problems with a mac pro either (but only used it for a few months (shipped w/10.5.6) - not used as heavily as the iMac, which is run from 6am to after midnight every day literally). I used a G5 tower (2003 dual 2GHz/air cooled) also with 10.5.x (until donated several months ago) - never had a real problem with it either. But as always, YMMV (infinite number of combinations of hardware/software/addons/drivers, etc. - there have been bugs that affected some configurations, but that's true for literally any OS.) My systems are fairly simple/clean as far as 3rd party addons compared to some users. And personally OS X has in general been reliable for me since the early versions, although I prefer Leopard now (for its features) to any previous version. But I'm looking forward to Snow Leopard also. But I'll be putting it on a separate drive (and not updating the primary workstation for some time) as like any first release I'm sure there will be bugs.-Mike)
This update also was very slow to complete, compared to most such updates -- kind of getting more like a Microsoft update (sloooowwww). It also automatically rebooted one more time after the manual reboot at the end of the install. I always assume that this implies a firmware update.
(The double restart seems common (based on reports and my experience) and I have seen the same thing several times in the past (including 10.5.7 update IIRC on this C2D iMac). Also saw that in the past with OS X updates on a G5 tower (no longer here though).
I too used to think that was due to some firmware update being applied (for things like airport cards or BT) - although unless they've changed the method lately, as mentioned here in notes on some previous airport card (only) updates - it seems the newer airport cards (at least the N ones) use software loaded firmware files (as you can reboot from an older os version/install and see different firmware version for the card).
Now I wonder if the initial 'double restart' is just part of their cache clearing/installer cleanup. (Or initial restart in a safe mode, then restarting again after updating some files?)
I didn't notice any system firmware update change after the 10.5.8 install. (Boot rom, SMC versions are the same after 10.5.8 update as they were before on the Mac Pro that I updated last night.)-Mike)
Finally, I noticed that the System Profiler now shows a "Hardware UUID"
-- perhaps Apple is getting setup for some serious secure licensing to
help prevent piracy.
You're right - I didn't notice it before but there is a new "Hardware UUID" listed in ASP after the update. Apple has had some sort of ID check extension before but can't recall the details now. I'll have to watch for posts from the hackintosh crowd. (Have some readers with OS X Leopard on a dell mini 9 and a couple using efix dongle on some homebrew pc system builds - but I suspect they're not going to jump on 10.5.8 until someone else reports on it..) [FYI - I didn't check it earlier but netkas.org has an Aug. 5th post with info/tips on 10.5.8.]
(see below for a later mail/follow-up)
"The new update 10.5.8 was supposed to fix compatibility issues with airport, but the issues which some people have (including myself) with not being able to connect to your own airport (even after defaulting it several times) , and getting messages like: Connection timeout (-6
timeout connecting) in the log, is not fixed...
So... anybody can join my wifi on wpa2, except my Macbook (alu unibody), you type in the password for your WPA2, and it gives a timeout. My airport express connects fine to my airport extreme by extending the network, the bridge is working perfectly, seriously thinking about throwing away this airport crap.
I asked what airport base firmware version he was using. I posted a page here earlier this year on problems with AE N base/TC 7.4.1 firmware. It drove me mad for awhile (dropouts, 'lost beacon', etc.) - knock on wood after the updates (2 airport util and the 7.4.2 firmware) it *seems* to be better in general. No problems for awhile since those updates were applied. (802.11n iMacs and Mac Pro (OS X + Bootcamp/Vista 64) - currently using simul dual-band AE base (bridged to DSL modem) with separate 2.4GHz network for B/G devices and an 802.11n USB adapter on PC tower downstairs - 5ghz range wasn't good enough for solid connections downstairs - signal strength reported very low)
I use WPA2 (Personal) and manually selected a 5GHz channel while troubleshooting the original 7.4.1 firmware issues (but checked today and it's showing Ch 149 (automatic) on 5GHz/channel 11 on 2.4GHz). 7.4.2 firmware also fixed some problems other readers had with extended networks IIRC. But nothing seems a sure fix for everyone. (I almost wince at every OS X update - even some with similar setups/systems, etc. that I have don't fare as well.)
And btw - just for the record did you use Software update or a download updater?
(sometimes, not always, reapplying a combo update can help - but again nothing is a sure fix for everyone)
Update: Here's Maarten's later mail:
"Well I've fixed it, so it seems. Defaulted both AE and AEX (Express) bases,
switch to WPA2 instead of WPA/WPA2 Personal, (I have always used "WPA2 Personal" since first getting an AE N base. I didn't even notice before that the WPA setting was "WPA/WPA2".-Mike) Cost me about 4 hours tonight but hey, it all works now, also set it manually to channel 7 (2.4GHz band) instead of automatic, so the upgrade to 10.5.8 seems to be working better now. I've tried this also before to no avail, now it works.
Everything is running latest firmware, I usually upgraded once a new version is available. Maybe it's also because my AE is a US version, and my AEX is a EU version, well... The AEX is also a flaky device imho, sometimes it just gives weird issues. Or it might be my dreambox connected to it, well anyway...thanks for your reply!.
BTW: switching to 802.11n rendered everything useless, not even a connection when sitting next to the AE, so switched back to 802.11n/B/G compatible mode.
some "N" adapters do not support 5GHz band (most all the USB and PCI N cards that have Mac driver support i.e. the Ralink drivers - although the Linksys USB adapter I have is dual-band (noted on the box - made sure of that although it cost almost twice what a 2.4GHz N USB adapter sells for). But the Apple TV and macs that shipped with n cards do support 5GHz mode. I've used 5GHz/wide channel mode for better performance upstairs - definitely faster for AppleTV syncs (especially during that time when I repeatedly saw resyncs of videos (GB's) to the apple tv... thankfully finally seemed to have solved that) - but the downside to that was no way to connect with my older macs (with B and G cards) or other devices that didn't support N/5GHz mode. And downstairs 5GHz wasn't always reliable (low signal strength).
I finally bit the bullet a few months ago and bought one of the simul dual-band AE bases - $179 but worth it as now all machines/devices have access (no more switching bands when I needed to use a 2.4Ghz only device). Although 2.4ghz band is more cluttered typically (more common than 5GHz networks, and devices like MW ovens can even interfere) I'm impressed at the range at times. (I live in a rural area with appx .4acre lots - yet I see more than 1/2 dozen wireless networks at times... and mooched off of one wide open network a neighbor has at times when my DSL was down or when I had a 5GHz only network and needed web access with a B/G only system/device.)
Major problems, no. Major solution, yes!
I own a 13 inch Macbook Pro. (I asked if he'd previously applied the EFI 1.7 firmware update. Just curious. He later said no.-Mike) It really sucked to bring home a shiny new machine and then get he horrid beach ball delay. Normally, I'd wait to install a new update, but because of the significant problems with applications freezing (beach-ball) and because it was worsening over time - I didn't hesitate. As Dylan wrote "If you ain't got nothin, you got nothin to lose." and boy was I a happy camper.
I first installed via software update, because I could download it and get it onboard quicker. Then I went to my local university and downloaded the close to 800 megabyte installer (Mac OS X 10.5.8 Combo Update (759MB)-Mike) and reinstalled it. The result - very few spinning beach-balls! This is one happy Machophile.
I had a friend from CA call last night to say installing 10.5.8 fixed a problem with system prefs (hanging, not responding IIRC) on his new (mid-2009) 15in MacBook Pro.
(posts/comments from the main news page earlier today follow)
I had a slew of mails from readers saying they were going to wait a few days before updating to 10.5.8 (I completely understand and good advice - as well as having a current backup/clone of your existing boot drive before updating.) Several others sent short mails noting no problems seen so far (one mentioned a long delay in the update progress bar although it finally finished), with promises to write back if any problems seen after more use.
Although Apple's doc about 10.5.8 update changes/fixes (also one on security fixes) didn't specifically list it, I expected the issue with VM Fusion/3D Windows apps (affecting some functions, but not all) with 10.5.7 would be fixed in 10.5.8 (although I was hoping for a driver update months ago w/o having to wait for 10.5.8). Here's a note on that:
Hey Mike, I was trying to determine the ATI driver versions last night after downloading the 700+meg Combo, when I noticed a post at Vmware Fusion's community:
"Apple Mac OS X 10.5.8 Update fixes ATI graphics problem:
The ATI driver in Mac OS X 10.5.6 and Mac OS X 10.5.7 caused slow
performance or Windows 3D application crashes with VMware Fusion's 3D acceleration. Please update to Mac OS X 10.5.8 to get an updated driver that resolves the problem."
I'll know more this evening as I was backing up last night "before" I apply
the update. (always good advice)
I updated one Mac yesterday (09 Mac Pro) using the D/L updater (delta this time) - no problems seen so far and noticed it seems to boot up faster now than in 10.5.7 (auto-login enabled). The Apple doc mentioned "Addresses an issue that could cause extended startup times" but no specific details. That Mac has the EVGA GTX 285 installed and I wondered about the nvidia driver version after installing 10.5.8. (I'd posted a FYI last month from EVGA that reminded owners to install the (early June) 18.5.2F16 driver update as it would be required for 10.5.8. Which made me wonder - wouldn't 10.5.8 have that driver (or later) included?.) Anyway, a check after 10.5.8 was installed still shows 18.5.2f16. (And tests in 10.5.8 with GLview and COD4 showed no improvements over the previous results w/10.5.7 using the same driver version. (I checked again on Aug. 7th - No new Mac GTX 285 driver updates seen at Nvidia or EVGA's site since the 2F16 release (June 10th from EVGA, dated July 2nd at Nvidia but same download/driver.) - EVGA confirmed no new driver updates since 2F16 back in early June.)
I just installed Mac OS X 10.5.8 with the Combo Updater onto my 2.33 GHz MacBook Pro. I've had no initial problems. There were two automatic restarts. (same thing here on initial restart - also seen with some previous updates.-Mike) I originally thought that it had disabled my AT&T unsupported Tethering on my iPhone 3G (never jailbroken, with Firmware v. 3.0.1). However, after I rebooted the MacBook Pro a second time and rebooted the iPhone 3G, everything worked again.
Prior to running the Combo Updater, I had a fresh SuperDuper! cloned backup and a Time Machine backup. (Ditto here, but I just use Disk Utility "restore" feature to clone HDs now.-Mike) I had also run Applejack (Auto mode) in single user mode, uninstalled Saft, then started up with the Shift key held down so that 3rd party extensions wouldn't load. Two days earlier I had rebuilt the directory with the latest version of ALSoft Diskwarrior.
Apple has 2 updated support docs with notes that 10.5.8 fixes previous issues with 10.5.7 - Cannot log in on managed client and Cannot verify identity of website using custom Certificate Authority in Safari or Mail.
The About 10.5.8 doc also mentions it "Resolves an issue in which certain resolutions might not appear in the Display pane in System Preferences." - I'm curious if those that saw "lost" resolutions in 10.5.7 (with some macs/displays) have seen that fixed in 10.5.8. (I didn't have that problem with 10.5.7 with the LCD displays I used.)
If you update to 10.5.8 and see any major pros or cons (including any 3rd party device/driver/app issues), let me know the details. Thanks.